Dreamers, Dreaming & Astral Dreaming

By Phoenix of Elder Mountain…  This photo below is an excellent symbol of how the actual “mental body” dreams. We have 3 dream bodies, and the first to master is always the Mental Body and the Mental Body dreamer. If someone masters Zen Meditation (zero thought at will),  one hour a day for seven years, then I can say one can understand what mastering the mental body actually means as a real practice. Now what does it mean in dreaming?


This photograph shows how the mind actually works in dreams, lucid dreams and flying dreams which some people think is astral but is not. Our mind projects all of it “onto the inside of the mental body bubble.” Its as simple as that. All images, sounds, places, colors, movement, observations, the universe, flying etc. are all projected by the mental body, so you, the dreamer will begin to understand projection. The language of our mind is expansive both in our projected dreams and our waking life. The mental body dreamer replicates everything we know in our waking life and brings it over into our dream life. If the mind sees a movie, it will bring those abilities over too. Its how the mind communicates – through projected symbols to you. This is why its in a bubble.

If we go further into dreaming, without training our mind to master and control our own thoughts at will, then the mind does not learn any dream languages (symbols) of substance. Then we have no practice of symbolism from our own dreams here in our waking life to teach our mind, as a mirror back teaching. The main reason we master symbolism in dreaming is to teach our actual mind to communicate the dream language. People take for granted that because they finished high school or college, that they can just apply our mind’s language to dreams. Not true.

There is a reason symbols must be mastered
and the mind must be mastered into silence:

“The development of the mind to communicate to you, must translate what the soul communicates to it when its at the edge of the wall (bubble), so when you and your mind wake up in the morning, you can begin to decipher what your souls symbols are. Once the connection between the mental body which is eventually given less and less power in dreams, the soul dreamer gets stronger and stronger.” Read this three times.what your soul astral body is sending to the mental astral body, from very far away (from the bubble).

Regardless of how much we “think” we are advanced in dreaming, without a strong and basic simple symbol language mastering and that takes a long time, the mind is then free to wander and think whatever the hell it wants about dreams and dream landscapes which is not real… its all a projection.

The mental body dreamer, which is an astral body can pick up quite a lot of information, but it only assumes things are real, because the mind is similar to a computer, it doesn’t feel, it doesn’t need, it doesn’t do anything but communicate (think). That is a limitation in dreaming, but not in dreams. Our same mind, can put just as much value on ordering a kielbasa or taco, equal to what it observes in dream. This is where one gets very lost in the great forest of dreaming. This is like breast feeding a baby with a Ferrari. In other words, the mind can only project from what it has seen in waking and anything outside of that in the concerns of the mental body’s astral body, its up to no good.

We are using the same untrained mind that orders food or a football ticket, equal to thinking we are communicating to the great eternal mystery. Not happening, but the mind thinks its happening, anything it wants and think in fact.Until the day comes when we say “no” its time for you to learn a dream language of symbols and shut up. The mental body does not like this, and it will rebel. Random assumptions is the great power of the mind and it has no jurisdiction in dreaming, none. The mind is only the beginner dreamer (lucid dreaming), not mid level nor advanced, regardless of astral tricks.

All of the mystery belongs to the “Soul Dreamer” and it has full jurisdiction over every level of dreaming outside the confines of the mental body dreamer. But where is she? Who is she, what is she and how many she’s (souls) are there?

She is lost from our own past and our past life karma, she is fragmented and in bad shape from the last two thousand years in every single one of us. My saddest observance of dreamers today, is that they are doing such hard work to wake up, but once they astral travel, its like joy riding in a Ferrari instead of looking for their on entrapped soul. No one makes it past first gate of dreaming in the middle world, until they pass the tests of the Alien Gates, and to do that, you will have trained military dreamers who will make sure you never pass that first gate to wake up, much less leave mental body dreamer. You can not enter second level dreaming until you do so. I see other waste ten years going round and round and getting no where (not getting past first gate and still stuck in astral and lucid dreaming).

Much less saving their own “real” soul (higher self) down around the 3rd and 4th gates of dreaming, which descends into the underworld. Or their mind has so much power that they are so lost in the forest of Illusions. Nobody makes it pass the 1st gate of dreaming, because even if you make it to the beginning levels of soul dreamer, your dreaming is flipping back and forth with an untrained mental body dreamer who orders tacos instead of spending 20 hours a week in hard core training, healing and discipline. And the wine, beer or pot will never let you pass first gate even with hard core training (healing).

Dreamers think they are always outside that bubble reality, because they don’t know any difference, there is no perspective, and dreaming is steeped with layers of illusions that generates false projections. How do I know this? Well let me give you an example of the difference between “Mental Body” dreamer who is dreaming inside the bubble and “Soul” Dreamer and who is not and made it past the complete slaying of the mental body:

Lets say your having a dream and a cat comes up and scratches your arm in your dream and you react to it in your dream as if it has happened. You look down at your arm and you see the scratch and some blood. You wake up, a little shaken and you analyze the dream, but there is “no” blood on your arm or scratch when you wake.

In the “Emotional Soul Body” dreamer, the same thing occurs in the dream, the cat comes and scratches you and you see blood. But this time, when you wake up, there is actually a scratch and blood from the cat scratching you. And the veil has dropped, and no separation between waking dream and night dreaming. Now this is something you had no control over and have entered real dreaming beyond the mental body, and no longer are safe.

Both the mental body and the emotional soul body both have special things to offer, and both require mastery and one is no better than the other, its just the mental body is flat, like a computer. The mind in dreaming cannot tell depth perception of illusions in dreams, it thinks everything is real and then you wake up and you think everything was real because your mind thinks it is.

First lesson in mental body dreamer is you give your mind no more powers in decision making, you just develop its observer and that it and leave judgment to the side and that is not an easy practice. The mind does not know what is real and what is not real in dreaming, nor what is the mystery is or what is the projected mystery.

So, if you think your flying in the world outside that bubble, or having visions with dmt, peyote or ayahuasca, or heavy duty pot, think again…  your still projecting from the mental body dreamer, all of it – onto the inside of that bubble and observing it, and not out in the great mystery behind the veil. In the case of shamanic drugs (plants) or visioning hallucinogenics, your bubble of your mental body has now entered into a 2 bubble, one inside the other which brings you even further away from your soul and the reality outside your mental “body” that is within you. What these actually do, is invite your shadow from outside the bubble from past life karma even close until it busts into your bubble, then eventually it turns into entrapment projection (ie schizophrenia, acute paranoia, night-mares etc) from prolonged usage of these past your 40s and 50s.

“Nothing is Free in the Great Mystery” says Death who always comes to collect the debt.

dream attacks

Are the images of the projection real, drug or no drug? Well, yes they are, they are equal to going to a movie theater and watching a movie projected onto the screen. Does that mean the movie is real, no, people are not actually there, the movie is a projection. If its a stage play, then there are people there and they are projecting a story (that would be like lucid dreaming). And lastly, your on the stage acting, yes that is like soul dreaming (the realm  of mystery and all the veils in the waking are seen in the play your in with other actors, and your all conscious your in a play). Transferring that into dreaming, those are the different levels of meaning, except for  your karma and shadow.

Karma and Shadow as dangerous will never occur in mental body dreamer, nor shamanic drugs unless you break your bubble and that happens sometimes, but not too often unless the drugs, pot, shamanic drugs are prolonged into a decade or two of use, then yes.

If you think your actually flying outside the bubble in the real reality in waking or dreaming… your not, even in Lucid Dreaming your not, but your getting close to the wall of the veil in Lucid Dreaming between the projected world, up against the bubble looking out.


Ancient cultures before religion, before paganism, before the goddess… were dream cultures and one must be willing to accept the traditional spiritual practices of discipline and hard work to be able to enter the karmic and mystery fields beyond the bubble restrictions of dreaming. Be thankful your bubble (water hasn’t broken) and you are birthed out into the real visions and real dreaming, because once these doors are open, they are quit dangerous and even further down the path, only real shamans and mystics are able to suffer enough pain to pass each gate.

They all come with more sacrifice and more discipline at every step. Self healing at dedicated levels of self mastery are mandatory and that takes decades, not a weekend shamanic drug vision where you touch nothing real. Beyond the bubble the soul within your body is looking for the past life and fragmented soul from wounds and past life wounding and woundedness. And she waits for you to wake up to go save her or him (this part of your past life) from the underworld.

So don’t be fooled by the mental body and its limitation for it is a waste of your time and Lucid Gates do not remain open forever and its wise to begin real spiritual disciplines and practices along with healing if you really are interested in progressing. Also dreaming when used to escape this world and its problems is even more dangerous.

As I train students and apprentices or clients interested in dreams, dreaming and dreamtime, it requires work and structure to prepare, a lot of work and work of your whole life, not just dream practices, but then slowly one advances decade after decade. Those who are fated dreamers will always advance over a long period of time, whether they want to or not, because death is always knocking on their door.

I am thinking I might do a round table conference call in my Dreamers 6 Month Sessions… if you are interested in this round table, its the same price as the in person group session. Those interested write me at ElderMountainDreaming@gmail.com


elder quote death dreaming








5 Comments Add yours

  1. Thanks for sharing, the complexity arises because we have 3 Human souls, the part your born with, the light human (and what shape she is in) and the shadow human (and what shape its in), this is the balance of our karma, our emotional life and our dreaming life and everyone’s is different. When I teach dreaming I always have to begin at the beginning no matter how advanced the dreamer is because we must contend with the mental body who disrupts and confuses all of it. Lucid dreaming is the gate where the mental body dreamer meets itself, its not soul dreamer yet. The mental body is also an astral body and depending if ones karma is the fragmented mental body, that is where they hear voices and communicate back to it. The mind is very difficult to train and anyone, including myself who has Mastered Zen (no thought at will), knows just how powerful and unforgiving it is and does not like to be mastered nor broken like training a wild horse. So you said your interested in the class, much of the questions can be discussed there. I am thinking now to open it up to more people I will do a video round table. I will keep you posted.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. I have so many questions, as I have such a wide and varied dream life and have always dreamt and remembered my dreams. I dream and have the awareness that I am dreaming, I have found myself dreaming and then waking and waking within another dream and then waking up. I fly, I have had such intense experiences and also have had what feels like deep processing releasing dreams, waking myself screaming, crying etc. Your information was insightful and also creates more questions as I have had vivid and so “real” and non ordinary reality feeling dreams. This in a brief nutshell tells me that my mental body still deals with fear, as I still have the looming feeling of fear and threats that I deal with in dreaming, I also do feel and am aware of spinning vortexes and energy that shifts and I know I am shifting, what I would translate as”going out” or “within” body in a different “dreambody”??? This has always puzzled me and have not known anyone who has had similar scenarios, except for maybe Lucid Dreaming information, like hearing the buzzing sound which is part of what happened to me when this dreaming became more constant and sort of feeling different. I read and reread your articles and find them so informative as well as such mystery which creates more questions that really intrigue me.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Then by all means, do join our six month work study on dreaming (video conferencing round table)


  3. LostAncestor says:

    A month ago I purchased a authentic dream catcher at a yard sale. I say authentic because it has genuine feathers on it such as even owl feathers. It also has a sweet grass braid and white and red twine entwined with the sweet grass. Ever since, every morning I am having mental body dreams however they are laced with predictions. It happens between 5am-7:30am. Also, this began too after the passing away of my mother. I was with her during her last week and at her moment of crossing. I have been working with you since December 2014.


    Liked by 1 person

    1. That is great Renee… what a find and such a sad loss. Its gets better eventually, it takes awhile. P


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